Crohn?

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1. Data: 2007-06-18 11:18:02

Temat: Crohn?
Od: Angels <c...@y...com> szukaj wiadomości tego autora

Hey.
Mam do Was takie pytanie. Czy mozliwe jest Morbus Crohn (choroba
lesniowskiego-crohna) bez zmian w badaniu histopatologicznym,
kolonoskopii?
Czy jesli sie ja odpowiednio wczesnie rozpozna i zacznie leczenie to
jest mozliwosc wyleczenia sie z tego?

Wielkie dzieki i pozdrawiam,
Angels

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Zobacz także

2. Data: 2007-06-18 11:24:40

Temat: Re: Crohn?
Od: "Dr.Endriu" <n...@i...pl> szukaj wiadomości tego autora

> Hey.
> Mam do Was takie pytanie. Czy mozliwe jest Morbus Crohn (choroba
> lesniowskiego-crohna) bez zmian w badaniu histopatologicznym,
> kolonoskopii?
> Czy jesli sie ja odpowiednio wczesnie rozpozna i zacznie leczenie to
> jest mozliwosc wyleczenia sie z tego?

http://tiny.pl/f524

Zauważ że układ pokarmowy to nie tylko jelito grube....

--
Pozdrawiam
Dr.Endriu
nmp1(małpa)interia.pl
http://nmp1.w.interia.pl

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3. Data: 2007-06-18 11:29:49

Temat: Re: Crohn?
Od: Piotr Kasztelowicz <p...@a...torun.pl> szukaj wiadomości tego autora

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Angels wrote:

> Mam do Was takie pytanie. Czy mozliwe jest Morbus Crohn (choroba
> lesniowskiego-crohna) bez zmian w badaniu histopatologicznym,
> kolonoskopii?

rozumiem, że można podejrzewać jeśli jest typowy obraz chorobowy
ale nie udało się dojść do miejsca gdzie jest zmiana i uzyskać
wiarygodnego materiału do badania hist-pat.

> Czy jesli sie ja odpowiednio wczesnie rozpozna i zacznie leczenie to
> jest mozliwosc wyleczenia sie z tego?

trudne pytanie, uzyskanie długiej remisji tak ale czy
pełne wyleczenie ???

generalnie nie powinno się pacjentom polecać czytania
prasy fachowej dla lekarzy ale ten artykuł jest napisany
na prawdę bardzo przystępnie i myślę że można polecić
go także niefachowcom
http://www.mp.pl/artykuly/index.php?aid=13662&_tc=D8
72A3886F6342BF9FE97075F5C94EFC

P.
--
Piotr Kasztelowicz P...@a...torun.pl
http://www.am.torun.pl/~pekasz
http://www.am.torun.pl
PGP Key IDs: DH/DSS:0xF3EED8AF

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4. Data: 2007-06-18 11:45:56

Temat: Re: Crohn?
Od: "Jurek" <m...@o...pl> szukaj wiadomości tego autora

Użytkownik "Angels" <c...@y...com> napisał w wiadomości
news:1182165482.381227.172990@c77g2000hse.googlegrou
ps.com...
> Hey.
> Mam do Was takie pytanie. Czy mozliwe jest Morbus Crohn (choroba
> lesniowskiego-crohna) bez zmian w badaniu histopatologicznym,
> kolonoskopii?
> Czy jesli sie ja odpowiednio wczesnie rozpozna i zacznie leczenie to
> jest mozliwosc wyleczenia sie z tego?
>
Poniżej lekarz "podpowiedział" jak przystało na lekarza z wiedzą akademicką.
Podpowiem inny sposób wyleczenia.
Pozdrawiam Jurek M.
>>
ARKADIA Willa Obywatelska
ul. Lorentowicza 7, 87-720 Ciechocinek
tel. +48(0-54) 283 20 21, po 20-tej tel. (0-54) 416 26 07
www.ciechocinek-arkadia.q4.pl
e-mail: a...@n...pl
Pokoje 1 i 2 osobowe
Żywienie Optymalne
Konsultacje lekarskie
Szkolenie w praktycznym stosowaniu prądów selektywnych
>
Uprzejmie proszę o odpowiedź, czy są jakieś szanse na poprawę stanu
zdrowia mojej córki. Ma ona obecnie 28 lat. Od wielu lat stosowała dietę
wegetariańską. Podczas studiów, w wieku 21 lat, zachorowała na chorobę
Leśniewskiego-Crohna. Choroba postępowała bardzo szybko, a OB. Było zawsze
powyżej 160. Wycięto jej 40 cm jelita.
Przez następne 7 lat przebywała długie miesiące w wielu klinikach w
łodzi, Krakowie, Warszawie, Wrocławiu. Poprawy stanu zdrowia nie było.
Następnie rozpoznano u niej ziarnicę złośliwą. Pewna pani profesor
powiedziała, że jest to choroba Castelmana. Dołączyła się skrobiawica,
białko uciekało z moczem, w osierdziu i w opłucnej zbierała się woda. Córka
przez cały czas otrzymywała duże dawki encortonu i innych leków. Obecnie
jej stan zdrowia jest zły i musi być dializowana co drugi dzień.
Byłam u wielu lekarzy i profesorów. Dlaczego żaden z nich nie powiedział,
od czego moje dziecko zachorowało i dlaczego nie można było znaleźć dla niej
skutecznej pomocy? Czy to dieta wegetariańska mogła być przyczyną chorób?
Czy żywienie optymalne mogłoby córce pomóc?

M.K., Kielce

Choroba Leśniewskiego-Crohna jest choroba z autoagresji, a zmiany
wrzodziejąco zapalne dotyczą najczęściej końcowego odcinka jelita cienkiego.
Jest to choroba bardzo ciężka.
Długotrwała choroba z autoagresji prowadzi często do rozwoju skrobiawicy.
W różnych narządach odkłada się wówczas amyloid - białko składające się z
antygenów białkowych wytwarzanych przez chore tkanki i przeciwciał przeciwko
tym antygenom. Gdy amyloid odkłada się w nerkach, dochodzi do niewydolności
nerek i trzeba wówczas stosować dializy.
Przyczyną choroby Leśniewskiego-Crohna jest dieta wegetariańska. Była ona
także przyczyną tej i innych chorób Pani córki.
Na diecie wegetariańskiej można tylko wegetować. Zdrowym być nie można.
Im bardziej niekorzystne jest odżywianie człowieka - tym bardziej
niekorzystna przemiana materii, tym bardziej ograniczone funkcje życiowe
organizmu. Źle odżywiony organizm ogranicza swą pracę do funkcji związanych
z przeżyciem, a nie wystarcza mu wartościowych białek do reperacji
uszkodzonych choroba tkanek i narządów. Zmuszony do korzystania z najmniej
wydajnych "paliw", cierpi na chroniczny brak energii potrzebnej do
utrzymania prawidłowych funkcji poszczególnych tkanek i narządów.
W technice najlepszym paliwem jest wodór, następnie metan, który na 1
cząsteczkę węgla zawiera 4 cząsteczki wodoru (CH4), etan (C2H6), propan
(C3H8), następnie węglowodory o dłuższych łańcuchach. Przejechać 100 km
samochodem można na 2 kg wodoru, 7 kg metanu, 11 kg benzyny, 30 kg węgla i -
na 100 kg węglowodanów.
Dokładnie te same zasady gospodarki energetycznej obowiązują w
organizmach żywych. Najlepszym paliwem dla człowieka jest wodór, pozyskiwany
głównie z tłuszczów. Więcej wodoru można uzyskać z tłuszczów nasyconych niż
nienasyconych, zatem tłuszcze nasycone są lepszym paliwem dla człowieka od
tłuszczów nienasyconych. Najgorszym zaś paliwem są węglowodany - główne
źródło energii dla ludzi na diecie wegetariańskiej.
W szpiku, wątrobie, nerkach, żółtkach, móżdżku, mięśniach zwierząt
występują źródła energii jeszcze lepsze od wodoru. Są to związki fosforowe,
wysokoenergetyczne, działające jak akumulatory. Spożywane w tych tkankach
zwierzęcych przez człowieka poprawiają jego gospodarkę energetyczną.
Główną przyczyną obecnego ciężkiego stanu zdrowia Pani córki są
wielomiesięczne, wielokrotne pobyty w różnych klinikach oraz odżywianie,
jakie w tych klinikach otrzymywała. Najbardziej szkodzi ono chorym na takie
choroby jak choroba Buergera, choroba Bechterewa, gościec przewlekły
postępujący, stwardnienie rozsiane i stwardnienie boczne zanikowe, inne
choroby z autoagresji, w tym choroba Leśniewskiego-Crohna.
W szpitalach i klinikach człowiek chory jest "odżywiany" głównie lekami,
a przecież zachorował on nie dlatego, że nie brał leków, a dlatego, że
zjadał to, czego zjadać nie powinien.
Jeśli cokolwiek może obecnie pomóc Pani córce, to tylko żywienie
optymalne. Jej organizm będzie mógł usunąć amyloid z nerek i, być może, jej
nerki będą mogły podjąć swą funkcję, a dializy okażą się niepotrzebne.
Spotykałem u chorych na skrobiawicę ustąpienie objawów powodowanych przez
odkładanie się amyloidu także w nerkach.
W początkowym okresie diety, w wyniku dużej przebudowy organizmu, może
zwiększyć się wytwarzanie końcowych produktów przemiany białek, takich jak
kreatynina, mocznik czy kwas moczowy. U chorych z niedomogą nerek, ale nie
dializowanych, może to spowodować wzrost poziomu tych związków we krwi. U
chorych dializowanych tego problemu nie ma.
Organizm może zreperować wiele, ale musi mieć stworzone do tego warunki.
Musi mieć dostarczane najbardziej wartościowe białko (najbardziej
biochemicznie podobne do białek organizmu ludzkiego) i najlepszą energię.
Wówczas może znowu wykonywać prace, których musiał zaniechać przy poprzednim
modelu żywienia.
Organizm Pani córki jest silnie wyniszczony, a jego przebudowa i odnowa
musi potrwać długo. Ale zauważalne efekty powinny być widoczne już po 2
tygodniach.

Lek. med. Jan Kwaśniewski
>

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`
end

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5. Data: 2007-06-18 11:48:54

Temat: Re: Crohn?
Od: "Bu" <b...@b...bu> szukaj wiadomości tego autora

> http://tiny.pl/f524
>
> Zauważ że układ pokarmowy to nie tylko jelito grube....
>
>

[OT] Wow! Nie wiedzialem ze juz taka technika jest ;-) W Polsce takie
badania juz rowniez sa ? Moze ktos wie (z ciekawosci pytam , a moze na
przyszlosc) ile taka przyjemnosci XXI wieku kosztuje ?

Pozdrowionka.

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6. Data: 2007-06-18 11:59:11

Temat: Re: Crohn?
Od: Piotr Kasztelowicz <p...@a...torun.pl> szukaj wiadomości tego autora

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Bu wrote:

> [OT] Wow! Nie wiedzialem ze juz taka technika jest ;-) W Polsce takie
> badania juz rowniez sa ? Moze ktos wie (z ciekawosci pytam , a moze na
> przyszlosc) ile taka przyjemnosci XXI wieku kosztuje ?

tylko to nie rozwiąże problemu tej osoby - czyli nie pozwoli
na postawienie rozpoznania hist-pat, ponieważ "Niemożliwe jest również
pobieranie wycinków do badań histopatologicznych ani wykonywanie żadnych -
nawet najmniejszych - zabiegów."

więc nie wiem, czy w tym przypadku warto!

P
--
Piotr Kasztelowicz P...@a...torun.pl
http://www.am.torun.pl/~pekasz
http://www.am.torun.pl
PGP Key IDs: DH/DSS:0xF3EED8AF

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7. Data: 2007-06-18 12:00:46

Temat: Re: Crohn?
Od: Piotr Kasztelowicz <p...@a...torun.pl> szukaj wiadomości tego autora

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Dr.Endriu wrote:

> http://tiny.pl/f524

1. i tak nie da się zrobić tym hist-pat
2. jeśli ma przetoki a może mieć to co będzie jak wpadnie przez przetokę
gdzieć i tam utkwi na zawsze?

P.
--
Piotr Kasztelowicz P...@a...torun.pl
http://www.am.torun.pl/~pekasz
http://www.am.torun.pl
PGP Key IDs: DH/DSS:0xF3EED8AF

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8. Data: 2007-06-18 12:24:24

Temat: Re: Crohn?
Od: "Dr.Endriu" <n...@i...pl> szukaj wiadomości tego autora

> [OT] Wow! Nie wiedzialem ze juz taka technika jest ;-) W Polsce takie
> badania juz rowniez sa ? Moze ktos wie (z ciekawosci pytam , a moze na
> przyszlosc) ile taka przyjemnosci XXI wieku kosztuje ?

Trzeba aby zapytać Marka Bieńka, albo Krzyśka Suzuki..... Oni tu "wymiatają"
najsolidniej..

Ale nie o tym chciałem...

Tak się akurat złożyło iż mama mojej koleżanki choruje na w/w chorobę Crona,
tudzież Celiakję.
Męczy się kobiecina juz od prau dobrych lat.... Setki badań itd.. Koleżanka
moja swego czasu prosiła abym "zgrał jej zawartość forum dyskusyjnych
dotyczacego obu chorób (c zrestzą uczyniłem). Wnioski i zalecenia lekarzy
dotyczace tych chorób dotyczą przedewszystkim zmiany sposobu żywienia.... I
tak zmiana ta polega na spożywaniu pieczywa bezglutenowego...

Swego czasu dyskutując z Jurkiem Miezyńskim dyskutowaliśmy na temat
bezdrożdżowego chleba białkowego:
http://tiny.pl/f58j

Chleb białkowy.
B 11 g T 14 g W 12 g
1 : 1,4 : 1,2
Kaloryczność 100 g 213
gotowej potrawy - 60 dag

"... 20 białek (50 dag) ubić na sztywną pianę. Następnie dodawać
małymi porcjami mąkę pszenną (10 dag) wymieszaną z 2 łyżeczkami proszku do
pieczenia (1 dag). na końcu wlać strumykiem 10 dag stopionego, lecz
chłodnego masła, cały czas ubijając. Piec tak, jak chleb biszkoptowy
(przepis wyżej). ..."

http://tiny.pl/f58p
"...Ja nawet nie wyobrażam sobie (od dawna) jedzenie chleba. Mam takie
uczucie,
że jak jem chleb, to mam wrażenie (czuję to wyraźnie, choć wiem, że to tylko
sugestia) jak on mi rośnie w żołądku...:).. "

Mając an uwadze te wszystkie zalecenia z dyskusji, i pozycji ksiażkowych
udałem się do sklepu z "zdrową" żywnością w moim mieście. Najpierw zapytałem
czy jest dostępny w sprzedaży chleb białkowy (robiony bez użycia drożdży).
Ekspedientka powiedziała że nie, ale stwierdziłą że ma chleb
bezglutenowy....
Zaciekawiony (choroba mamy mojej koleżanki) kazałem sobie podać w celu
sprawdzenia składników/kaloryczności....

I co zobaczyłem.... chleb dla cięzko chorych na jelita robiony jest przy
pomocy DROŻDŻY, tak jak normalny chleb w sklepie.....

http://nmp1.ovh.org/05.htm#zalecenia
"Kwaśne" pieczywo, z dodatkiem drożdży piekarniczych.
Niestety, ten nakaz jest przez nas regularnie naruszany. Drożdże zawarte w
wyrobach z mąki niszczą nas powoli, ale skutecznie, wypaczają naszą
mikroflorę i sprzyjają rozwojowi nieodwracalnej dysbakteriozy.

--
Pozdrawiam
Dr.Endriu
nmp1(małpa)interia.pl
http://nmp1.w.interia.pl

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9. Data: 2007-06-18 12:38:30

Temat: Re: Crohn?
Od: "Dr.Endriu" <n...@i...pl> szukaj wiadomości tego autora

> 2. jeśli ma przetoki a może mieć to co będzie jak wpadnie przez przetokę
> gdzieć i tam utkwi na zawsze?

To jest fakt....

> tylko to nie rozwiąże problemu tej osoby - czyli nie pozwoli
> na postawienie rozpoznania hist-pat, ponieważ "Niemożliwe jest również
> pobieranie wycinków do badań histopatologicznych ani wykonywanie żadnych -
> nawet najmniejszych - zabiegów."

A tam nie można...lekarze w takich przypadkach zawsze kończą tym...

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolektomia
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resekcja

...choroba mojej znajomej w efekcie zakończyła sie ingerencją hirurgiczną,
ale niestety na dzień dzisiejszy nie wiem
jaka część i których jelit zostałą wycięta...

Zastanawiające jest również i to, ze gdy zapytałem się koleżanki czy jej
mama robiła kiedykolwiek w 20 letniej historii chioroby robiła
hydrokolonoterapię, odpowedziała "Nie"... Kategorycznie zakazywali jej tego
lekarze...

--
Pozdrawiam
Dr.Endriu
nmp1(małpa)interia.pl
http://nmp1.w.interia.pl